MUDSLINGING LEADERS BEWARE: The Cost of Dirty

The Cost of Dirty

WITH GUEST Dr. L. Carol Scott, PhD

Introduction:

You’re listening to Tiller-Hewitt’s Leadership Lens Podcast.  If you’re a leader - or an aspiring leader - who wants to stay relevant and impactful… YOU’RE IN THE RIGHT PLACE.

At Tiller-Hewitt we believe it’s faster, smarter -- and less painful -- to learn from leaders who have walked before us. That’s why we invite top leaders to be our guests on the Leadership Lens.

Your host is Tammy Tiller-Hewitt – Founder of Tiller-Hewitt HealthCare Strategies. Let’s jump into the podcast.

Introduction:

Today my guest is Dr. L. Carol Scott – a PhD in Developmental Psychology - a three-time Leadership Lens Podcast guest, and that's for a good reason. Dr. Scott's leadership topics go deep, and frankly, they hit at the heart of what we need to hear... and know as leaders.

As I was debriefing with Dr. Scott after our interview about how insightful, thought-provoking and frankly alarming some of the material was, she said it best: 'A little information is dangerous, but sometimes it's an invitation to learn more.'

How many of us have used all too common words like: triggered, gaslighting, ghosting, or Narcissist at work to describe a person or behavior? These words get thrown around so casually in leadership circles... but most of us don't really know what they really mean. By the end of this conversation, you might - like me – now think twice before using these words again.

Let's jump in.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Dr. Carol Scott, welcome back to the Leadership Lens Podcast.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Thank you, Tammy! So delighted to be here.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Listen, you know the saying, third time's the charm, so I'm sure all of our guests have listened to your other podcasts, but if you have not, you definitely want to go back and listen. Carols talked about leadership blind spots and do-overs. She's talked about the most important thing we need to know about ourselves.

And today, I'm excited because we are going to explore a leadership topic that we have not covered before. And Dr. Scott's gonna get up in our face about things that will resonate with you and will really, you know, hit home. And we're going to be talking about mudslinging. We're going to be talking about misused terms and labels that many organizational leaders use. Or better said, as Dr. Scott said, the popular misuse of psychiatric terms or labels that we've picked up that have now become this common and Cavalier vernacular, even used in the C-suite. And what these terms really mean. She's really going to, again, get up in our face and talk about the consequences, on leaders, on individuals, and really on our organization. So, hey, let's start this.

Can I start by asking you a couple questions about this?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

You go, absolutely.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Okay, so let's just start by kind of level setting so people understand what we're talking about. How is the popular use of psychiatric labels about trauma affecting organizational leaders? Or maybe even back up and talk about what are we talking about?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Well, yeah, let me start with the basic that we're talking about. Popular tech terminology that has pulled out of psychiatric and psychological research and practice has become popularized, and people are using it to label each other. And, you know, thank goodness for magazines like Psychology Today and popular independent bloggers who take it from there. But there is a science, or at least a pseudoscience, there's a list of indicators at least, to say whether someone is a narcissist or not. To define for us what gaslighting looks like.

You can actually look at the field expertise and have definitions behind these things, rather than your sense of what the word means. And so, what happens in organizations, then, is that people get to simply dismiss the entire body of input from one person because they've just been labeled a narcissist. Or, all of a sudden, one member of a team is almost ostracized, like, shunned because someone has said she gaslighted me, or he ghosted me, or, you know. We're using these terms to talk about personal interactions in ways that aren't real, simply because we don't have good vocabulary or good practice about… about how to talk about interpersonal patterns and relationships in a healthier way.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Yeah, so I cannot wait to cover this, because honestly, Dr. Scott, I'm hearing these terms all the time. You know, we talked earlier before the podcast about, we use terms that really paint this visual picture, like, oh, we're moving the needle, or, you know, just… things that don't… like, what needle? Where are we moving it? You know, but you're really going to talk about terms I've started hearing so much. And I'm going to be honest with you, I had to look up a couple of the words to see what… what is gaslighting? What is… what's really narcissist? I knew it was…kind of a psychology or a psychiatric term, but I didn't really know what it means, but I was hearing so many people called that, that I'm like, okay, what does this really mean? So, I cannot wait for you to, like, just open up the floodgate and tell us how we're… what they mean and how we're misusing them.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

I think, you know, one of the things that I've been hearing the longest in the pop language is the word trigger. This came up, I don't know, even during the pandemics a little bit, during the quarantines. But I started hearing people talk about being triggered when what they were describing was an emotional reaction.

So, somebody does something, somebody says something, and I feel angry about it. I feel dismissed, belittled. I'm feeling, all of a sudden, anxious. I'm feeling like I need to leave. You know, it's like I'm having an emotional response in my body. That is not a trigger.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Ooo…

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

An emotion, if I can say I'm feeling afraid, or if I can talk about what's happening, if I can say, hey, that thing you just did, I'm really scared, you're not triggered. Because a trigger is a neurological phenomenon that takes your brain offline. You can't think, you don't have words, you can't talk. If you're triggered, your whole body is convulsed by your nervous system in a cascade of symptoms that you don't have any control over, and you could barely say your name if you're actually triggered. But what's happening is, you just don't like what somebody's doing, and so you're calling yourself triggered because you don't have the emotional intelligence to stay grounded and respond.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

 So… People who are very educated in your area of expertise, you must listen to some of these things and think, this person is, frankly, dumb as a box of rocks that they're using these terms so inappropriately, or so incorrectly.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Yeah, and I… I think more… I have a little bit more, kind of, oh, dang, kind of a compassionate, oh, honey, where'd you learn that shtick, kind of reaction, rather than anger. Because it is, like I said, this has been… we've been setting this up I think the first issue of Psychology Today was published in the 1970s. So popularizing scientific research of all kinds in the psychiatric and psychological realm has become the thing. And so, the Psychology Today article comes out, and it's fairly factual, and has the foundation research, and then news organizations report on it. And they do what news organizations do to stuff like that. And then somebody reads the news report, and then they turn it into their blog post, or they turn it into their personal rant somewhere else on the internet as an independent person, and then that all gets read by somebody who carries it into the workplace and doesn't know what they're talking about.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow, wow, what a cycle. Okay, so let's talk about how these popular labels, are affecting organizational leaders.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

You know, one of the things that I think is so crucial is that these… To know is that these patterns in organizations will have a variety of impacts, some of which is not predictable, and that the key is the leader who is savvy enough to see it and to deal with it. So, if the leader doesn't know the difference between a trigger and an emotional reaction to someone, then the organization's going to be affected by these things. It's kind of like it's too late to stop it. It's time to deal with it. And that requires some self-awareness about, what am I like when I'm really triggered?

Now, I am a person who had an early childhood experience that was. It's full of really terrible experiences. I had early childhood full of adversity. And so, my nervous system is wired by a lot of fear and anxiety, and I'm pretty reactive. And I've learned how to manage that. I know when I'm having a real triggered reaction. I can feel it coming.

Very first thing is, my mouth goes dry. Right? This is a neurological experience, and so it just happens. It literally just turns on. And so first, I have to learn about myself. Am I a person who gets triggered? What does that look like? What triggers me? How do I behave? What are the symptoms within me? And then how do I manage them? What do I do to intervene before my reactivity comes out of my mouth. Right? Because I am not thinking… I'm not thinking at first, and then I'm not thinking clearly. I am disorganized in my emotions. I am chaotic in my body. It's not a good place to lay out a policy from or even to just react personally. It's not a good place to do that from. So, starts with learning my own, and then it starts with being able to see the patterns in the team.

Who is getting triggered? Instead of looking at that person going, what is wrong with them? Why is that person always so angry? Why is that person always getting up and leaving the room in tears? What is wrong? You know, just know that what you're probably witnessing is a triggered reaction, if you understand what those look like.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

So, if they don't get triggered as a leader, it's going to be extra hard for them to understand if someone is getting triggered, or if it's just another emotional reaction.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Yeah, I think they'll need to do some studying up and talk to people they know who do get triggered, who do have reactive nervous systems and get triggered. Because that's a lot of us. It's a pretty… it's a pretty trauma-laden environment that we live in, so it's hard for any of us to come out without triggers.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Oh, okay, alright, so, alright. Because I don't know that HR professionals are really trained in this area to even support a leader or a manager. You know, I have one client right now who's going through some HR counseling, and I don't know, you know, we've got people in different cycles of their careers, and we have some pretty new HR people that I don't know… if they would know, or maybe it's more prevalent in training now, that they would know more than a seasoned HR professional. I don't know, but I feel like there's not a good support system to help them through HR. What's been your experience?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

You know, I'm not really clear about that either. I see a lot of, as I continue to write and research and read, I see a lot of conversation about this kind of stuff. About the sort of… psychological instability of interpersonal relationships. Sort of broadly speaking. Interpersonal relationships are the biggest challenge, I think, right now, in organizations of all kinds. Whether it's a for-profit corporation, or a government agency, or a non-profit enterprise. They're all struggling with how people get along with each other. And so, if HR isn't dealing with that pretty specifically, they're… they're, like, chasing the tail of the tiger at this point.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Right. But what are the limitations? So, we're using these labels that we talked about, trigger, gaslighting, narcissist, what… what… how does that limit us, and… What are the consequences of this.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

What a great question! How does that limit us? Thank you for this, Tammy, because I think this is the heart, maybe, of the impact on the organization. It limits not only my ability to have an authentic exchange with another person, but it also limits their ability to express their, I don't know, their capacity, their, what's the word I'm looking for? What they bring to the organization is limited, their asset to the organization gets limited and so does… so does the leadership. So… when, somebody is deep in one of these places where they're… let's talk… take the place of, here's a person on your team who is doing this to people. They are talking about how other people are gaslighting them. They're talking about trig… being triggered by other people. They are the source of the messy language and the misapplied terminology. And so, you're watching, as the leader, you're watching this pattern, and you're looking for how to support both people, because both of them are being limited. That's my point. Both of them are being held back by their… from their full potential, and they're both members of your team. So, it's really easy to judge one of them, either the person who's doing that, sloppy language as being the sort of aggressor or the problem, or the other person as being the problem because they can't, like, hold up to it or deal with it themselves. So, we're talking about limiting potential all the way around, and the way, I think, to stop that limiting is to be overt and talk about, and to do it from a place of calm, grounded knowledge.

So, not too long ago, I was in a conversation with someone who said about being triggered. That… that she had been triggered by someone. And I said oh, what are the characteristics? This is a coaching situation, so I can ask this situation. What are the characteristics of your triggered reaction? What happens when you are triggered? And there was this sort of long silence. And then she said, well, I, you know, I just was really mad, and I… my voice got loud, and I started talking about… I said, okay, so let's say, more clearly what that was. What you're describing for me is an episode of being angry at someone. So, let's back up and just talk about the definition of trigger for a minute. And I bring out documents. I bring up the receipts, is the way they say it these days, you know? It's like, here's the definition, here's the DSM-3 website, or the DSM… what number are we up to now? 6? The diagnostic statistical manual that psychologists and psychiatrists use to diagnose. This is where you go look for the reality of the way this term is used.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

That is so fascinating. Okay, so tell me… this… remind me, what does gaslighting mean?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Well, the way people are using it now is, that someone is saying something to you that… they're having a different memory of a conversation that the two of you had, let's say. So, earlier today, you talked about this, and now we're recalling it and talking about it, and the other person is saying, that's not what I said. And you're like, yeah, you did. You're gaslighting me. Because you're having a different recall of the conversation. So that's one thing that gets called gaslighting when it's not. Having a different view of the same event, having a different experience or perspective, in the same experience, in the same moment, seeing it completely differently. That person is not gaslighting you, you are not gaslighting them. Questioning memories about the past. Even when somebody lies to you, outright lies to you, just once about something, that's not gaslighting either, because gaslighting is a campaign. It's a pattern, long-term, calculated, extended campaign of those kinds of tactics. It's denying your reality and manipulating your reality over and over and over again with the intention of targeting your sanity, your sense of your own sanity. So, you know, it's not… the person who is gaslighting you doesn't say, I remember the conversation differently. They say, what conversation?

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Oh.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

That's gaslighting.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

So, if you go back and watch the, I don't know, 1940-something movie with Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman, you get it really fast. He's manipulating his wife's sense of sanity. And he's… he's altering reality so that things happen, and she observes and witnesses them in real time, and then he denies that they're happening. He stands in the same room with her and says, the lights aren't flickering, what are you talking about? That's gaslighting.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow, that's pretty thought-provoking.

What would you call it? Now, if people are saying, oh, he's gaslighting me, how would you correct them?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

I would ask, first of all, well, what are you talking about? What's the behavior that you're describing? And often what it comes out to is, well, I said this this morning when we talked, or yesterday, this happened, and now he's saying it didn't, or she's saying I didn't say that, or… it's a difference of remembrance, a difference of experience, usually, that's being described. And so, depending on the relationship, you can do it kind of shorthand, or go more deeply into it. But this is about being aware that reality doesn't exist as a constant that we all share. And so, some way of interrupting that sort of dream that the person is having, that reality is a… a constant, that we all have the same experience, can vary, you know, that's what you have to do, is interrupt that thinking. But depending on the relationship with the person, that could be a joke, or it could be a serious sit-down conversation or a coaching session.

But it's really about saying, look… this is a basic, fundamental 4-year-old thing that I'd just love to show you, if I can come up with an object. Ah! Here we go. We'll use my water bottle. Audience can't see this, but I'm holding up my water bottle, the camera, and Tammy is looking at the side of my water bottle that is solid blue. That's all she's looking at, is a blue water bottle. And I'm pointing to the other side, and I'm saying, look, look at these letters right here. Tammy, what does this say? What do these letters spell? I can't read this! But she can't see it. Because it's on my side of the water bottle. Taking perspective for someone… taking someone else's perspective. The ability to understand that other people see the world differently, think about it differently, understand it differently. It's a fundamental gift of being 4 years old. You're supposed to get to 5 already knowing that. And so, it's time to disrupt the dream. If you still think that everybody looks at the world the same way you do, it's time to check out of that reality.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Okay, but when does it cross over and it's officially gaslighting?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

When someone is clearly, day after day after day, doing those I don't know what you're talking about. That didn't happen moments.

When you get evidence that they have altered something and not, owned it. Have changed a document. Have altered an appointment. Have manipulated physical reality in the world. If someone is going into another person's calendar and messing up their appointments, or going into their files and messing up their files, so that it seems like they're incompetent, and they seem like they're confused, and they're, not able to find their stuff, and they're… right? But it's a consistent campaign across weeks, months. It's not one day of; you and I disagree about what happened.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

So instead of saying they're gaslighting, does that mean they're a gas lighter? I mean, is there an official diagnosis for that?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Yeah, they're pattern is more what gets diagnosed. So, it's… but yeah, if you're the person who's creating that manipulation pattern, then you're the gas lighter, yeah.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

You're a gas lighter, okay.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Yeah, but more often, what's needed is, you two need to sit down and talk through how you saw this differently, how this… and come up with a new solution, because it doesn't work to say, yes, you did, no, I didn't, yes you did, no, I didn't, all freaking week. You got to get past that. And so, if the real truth is there's just been a difference in understanding here, well, let's recreate the understanding then. Let's say from now, and we're going to, you know, let's record this meeting where we're gonna have this conversation, just to make sure. You know, let's be clear about things and get them sorted out so that we can't… fall into the trap of thinking that someone's trying to destroy us, manipulate our reality.

That happens very rarely, usually inside a marriage rather than at work.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Gotcha. Okay. And now, please define for me what is a narcissist, and how, and how are people misusing that term?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

You know, this is a big one, because people are starting to even put finer categories on it. So now there are toxic narcissists, and there are, you know, this kind of narcissist and that kind of narcissist. So, the fundamental truth is, you know, the term comes from a Greek myth about a beautiful young man who was captured by his own reflection in the water. And couldn't look away from himself because he thought he was so gorgeous. And so, what this is really about is our admiration of ourselves. And it's normal to admire myself, it's normal for you to admire yourself, to know your good qualities, and to think well of yourself. In fact, it's sort of fundamental to being a leader to think well of yourself while also having some humility, also knowing you don't know everything. Knowing you're not all of that, that other people bring assets that you don't have. But having that place of comfort with yourself, comfort with knowing who you are, can come across to people who don't feel that as narcissism. And I think what they really mean is, you look self-confident.

You… you have a healthy ego. You think well of yourself. You talk kindly about yourself. You promote yourself and your good qualities. You say, I can do that, I'm good at that. Other people might think that looks like narcissism if they cannot themselves do that. Somebody who is so absorbed in themselves that they literally are unaware of other people. That's a narcissist.

I have one in my family, so let me describe a couple of examples. One is that in all conversations, the default is about her. So, I say something, something, something about me, I want to tell you this thing about me, and as soon as I get to something that can reasonably be about her, she enters the conversation, and she is, like, talking about that thing about her. Nothing about what I said. I'm currently learning Spanish, I live in Mexico, and I say, oh, in my Spanish class today, I learned this little phrase that I'm going to start using. And her response is, oh, yeah, I am so good at Spanish now, I can listen to everything in Spanish, and I can understand almost everything.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Great!

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

That's a very narcissistic response. That's a very self-focused, I don't-even-hear-you-talking-about-yourself kind of response. Narcissists often are in the same category psychologically, psychiatrically, as sociopaths, which essentially means you really don't have any ability to care about what happens to other people. You don't care about your impact on them. If you hurt them, that's, like, so not a problem for you. That's their problem, that they are hurt. You're just, you know, being you. And so, the complete disregard for other people and your impact on them is a pretty clear sign that you're really looking at a classic narcissist. But all of us have narcissistic tendencies. All of us can be labeled a narcissist simply for thinking that we're good at what we do.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

So when do people misuse it, then? If someone's super confident, they'll say they're a narcissist? Because before you answer that, I thought a narcissist was… someone who it was never their fault. They always figure out a way how to turn it around, and really, you caused this. Really, this happened because of you, and you can… it's like a punch in the gut where your kind of blindsided by that response, and then you start second-guessing, wait, did I cause that? Wait a minute. So, what's that called, then?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Well, and this is one of those categories of narcissism that, yes, you're right, there's a… there's a kind of narcissist that people refer to as an emotional vampire, or an energy vampire more often. Energy vampires, that's one of their key characteristics. Nothing is ever their fault. They blame everyone else for everything.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Okay. Alright, so that… okay. So, if you have somebody who won't own up to what they've done, or how they've, contributed to this problem that's narcissistic behavior, too. But doesn't necessarily make them a narcissist, so that we don't misapply this terminology.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Yeah, I think the tendency in all of us to not notice our challenges and our foibles, our weaknesses, and to elevate our strengths. That's a little touch of what can become narcissism. It's just that I want to feel good about myself. That's not narcissism. I want to acknowledge that I'm… a healthy, strong person. I like to talk about how I survived 7 out of the 10 adverse childhood experiences documented to put me either in the ground or in a funny farm. I survived all of that, and I'm doing really, really well in my life. So, I think it's important to say those things about myself, and if that makes me look like I'm a narcissist to you, I don't really care. I recently gave a talk, back in January, I gave a talk here in my own local community, neighbors! And in the lobby afterwards, it was reported to me by a friend. Someone said, well, I thought she was awfully full of herself.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Ooh.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

And so sometimes they don't say, she's a narcissist, mudslinging sometimes looks more subtle, like, well, I think she's awfully full of herself.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Yeah.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

And when she… when I heard this from my friend, I laughed out loud, Tammy, and I said, well, geez, who else am I supposed to be full of? What?

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Oh, that's a good comeback. That is a good comeback.

Well, I think before we, you know, we get these new terms, trigger, trauma bond, which we've not talked about, gaslighting, ghosting, narcissists, we would just say they're crazy, they're nuts, they're moody, they're, you know, we had other names for them, there's just… Now, basically, I think what you've said is, we've crossed over to these official psychiatric labels that now, it's… it's very specific, and we now crossed over into the danger zone, I guess, by having these very specific labels that have… truly have a meaning.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

And it bypasses the shared humanity of, look, we all grew up with stupid ideas about who we are and how to get along with other people, let's just admit it. Let's just agree that a lot of us aren't operating authentically in life. A lot of us are masked and pretending and afraid. A lot of us are incapable of really having compassion for other people. Let's just admit that we need to do some more, you know, reparenting ourselves, growing up a little bit more, finding assets for interpersonal strength and wholeness that we just don't have yet, and make it a yet, instead of beating myself up over the head, how come I don't do better with this stuff? Well, you know, maybe you just need to go back to school for a little while. So, can I say, invite people to my assessment?

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Of course!

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

I would love it if you would put the link to my, executive function assessment in the show notes, and let people take this quick little… it's not a, you know, psychometrically valid and reliable instrument, but it's a quick little look at your executive leadership function relative to these interpersonal emotional kinds of dynamics with people. I think it's going to be a lot of fun for people to see what kind of score they get.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Yeah. Can you say that… and I'll put it in the show notes, but in case someone's listening and wants to take it this very second, what that is?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

It's the Executive Function Assessment, and we're going to give you a URL to a landing page where they can just get it, download it.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Okay, alright, very good. Yeah, that'll be awesome. And then, how about how long will it take them to take that assessment?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Usually less than 5 minutes. It's a pretty quick… I want it to be from the gut.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Yeah.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

You know, it's a… it's a continuum of mark yourself from really a lot to not very much, kind of, on these things, and so just mark whatever comes to your mind quickly as you go through it.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

And then will they get the immediate results?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

No, I don't think so. Now, you're gonna ask me something that I don't know the answer to.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Oh, sorry.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

We're in the process of developing the landing page, and we still have one more meeting about it, so I don't have the answer to that question.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Okay. Well, hopefully, by the time they get this information, they'll be able to get immediate results.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Yeah.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

So, what is trauma bond? That's something that we've not covered. Can we cover that one last terminology… term… yeah, term that I'm hearing.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

I would love to, because this is one I've heard just recently too, way too much. People are referring to the relationship between survivors as the trauma bond. So, if I'm a survivor of childhood abuse, and you're a survivor of childhood abuse, we form a trauma bond to talk about our shared trauma. And so, the habit of people who have been victimized to talk to each other, which is… I'm sorry, but in my world, we call that a support group. The intention is for us to support each other and to validate each other. And what the trauma bond is, is not that. It's the relationship you have with the abuser. This is what was called Stockholm Syndrome, I think, during World War II. It's what was called Patty Hurst Syndrome in the 1970s, when William Hurst's daughter was abducted by this Indianese Liberation Army. This is when you are dependent on the person harming you. Your survival is in their hands. And therefore, you have to bond with them. You have to be subservient to them. You have to be at their will in order to live is the way that you process that. And so, Patty Hurst took a machine gun and participated in a bank robbing with the Simeonese Liberation Army, this, you know, media heiress. Picked up a gun and robbed a bank, because she felt alliance with the Symbionese Liberation Army by the time she did that. They had… essentially, it's a brainwashing pattern, and it happens in marriages where there's domestic violence, the partner being abused becomes dependent on and bonded to the person hurting them. It happens in child-parent relationships. It happens in any… it happened in the workplace, where one person is Psychologically abusing another person that they have authority over. That's a trauma bond.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow. So, you're saying that people misuse it, thinking that they're talking about two people with shared trauma. Where it's misused, where it's more of an alliance to your abuser.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Yeah, and I… to get to the, like, very heart depth of it, my trauma bond was, slash is, with my father who was my predator in childhood. Now, he's been dead for years, since the 1980s, and psychologically, he still has a lot of control over me. And certainly, he had control over me for years after I no longer lived with him, or had any relationship with him, even. His early grooming when I was a very small child is, like I'm devoted to this person who hurt me, and I hate him. That's a trauma bond.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Right? It’s tough.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

So, where do you see this in the workplace in terms of how leaders can support it, stop it, what… I mean, mostly stop it, but where they can identify, there's the word I'm looking for, identify this is happening, or to talk to the leaders.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

I am, you know, the biggest advocate I can be for emotional intelligence and emotional independence in leadership. If we cannot have the courage of self-awareness to look really at what we do to examine our patterns, how we interact, how we get what we want. You know, you can't sit down and, you know, spend 20 minutes talking about how you really get what you want. And let's define it. Is it bullying? Is it, manipulation? Is it guilt tripping? Is it, you know, what is it that you do? Do you just ask straight up and negotiate? What is your pattern for how you do what you do with other people. That's where it starts, and I think every leader has to be willing to do the self-awareness, the shadow work, the therapy work if they need it, the… all the different ways of self-examination that lead us to our own understanding and make us more compassionate and aware of the humanity of other people. If I can understand how I do something stupid, why I have really crazy thoughts and feelings, then I'm more compassionate about you having them.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Right. So, are you suggesting that Leaders can actually be creating a trauma bond with a subordinate without knowing it.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

 Yes. I am. Yeah.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

If they have, a strong, assertive, dominant, almost aggressive kind of personality and style, and the person that they're supervising has a highly triggered nervous system, has a history of being the victim of violence, has other kinds of experiences that, even if the supervisor has some physical characteristics in common with someone who has been a source of trauma or violence in their lives. All of that can feed into what's happening is the supervisor doesn't really know anything at all about what's happening with that subordinate. It doesn't understand, she doesn't know how that person is operating, but there's a mess going on down there, and so what's coming back is coming out of the mess, and they're not getting the best performance or product from that person.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Wow, it turns from… Stop, misapplying terminology to something, and mudslinging to something that's pretty darn serious.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

It is, yeah. I'm…I'm very concerned about how we all get along with each other. The talk that I gave back in January, where I was so full of myself, was called, “How to Get Along”. Because I really think there's… we've lost an enormous amount of ability, and we need some different kinds of abilities for this current climate and culture that we live in. This digital climate, this worldwide climate, this information overload climate requires new skills for everyone, including especially leaders.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Right. Yeah, I mean, they're… they model the way for the organization, so, for sure.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

We do.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Well, wow, this has been fascinating and more alarming than I thought it was going to be, and so… which is good, because we need to know this as leaders. We, you know, we need to set the… set the stage and… and the do's and the don'ts of what we do, and really just raise awareness on our own behavior and just understanding how things have shifted again to this, you know, new set of psychiatric terms versus just funny mudslinging terms. Anything else you want to share with our leaders before we wrap up?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

I think the most important term that has come into popular use from the psychiatric community in our current timeline is the term trauma informed. And I am a great believer that leaders need to be trauma-informed or sometimes called trauma-educated. If we don't understand the impact… trauma is stored in the body, it's not a thing that happens to you, it's what you carry. And if we don't know how that works in our own bodies, and we don't know how it works in the bodies of the people we work with we're not going to be as successful. Successful leaders need to be trauma-educated. And yeah, it's scary to talk about some of this stuff, I know, but it's the way of the future. It's how we go forward.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

So, if leaders are here, and they're like, this has been eye-opening for them, and they're thinking, okay, I need to start with myself and my leadership team first to be more trauma-educated, what would they do? What would the first lever be that they could pull to make this happen?

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Well, I would love it if they would subscribe to my weekly newsletter called “Rise and Stride” on LinkedIn. That would be a great start, and read it every week, 3 minutes. Good stuff.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

And then there's contact information if they wanted to bring you in to talk to their teams, then you're available for that as well.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

I can come in and do a live training, I can do, input by Zoom, also one-on-one coaching or team coaching. Yep, absolutely, all of that.

Tammy Tiller-Hewitt:

Perfect. So, there's really no excuse for any of our listeners not to really, really digest this information and apply it, because as Dr. Scott said, it all starts with self-awareness. And we've got to know about ourselves and understand this before we can help others, or really lead others effectively in today's new world, if you will. So, Dr. Scott, thank you so much. This has been so educational and thought-provoking. So, I appreciate your time today.

Dr. L. Carol Scott:

Thank you, Tammy. As always, it's wonderful to talk with you.

CLOSING:

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